That is quite meta..
But the recycling of souls is something I never truly understood. I do believe that Shinigami and Menos don't join the cycle. Those two seem to me like polar extremes of the spectrum, so Shinigami living mulitple lives is out of the question. The Cycle has only spoken of Pluses and Hollows. So when a Plus goes to SS, and happens to attain Shinigami powers, it leaves the cycle. Same with Menos.

I really don't see how Isshin differs, but that's partially due to my ardent dislike for him.

I don't think Ichigo has those abilities, as you may have said. Example: his attack against Kenpachi. It wasn't something he was well and truly conscious of, something he could up and do whenever he wished it. Remember "resolve"?: which he used against Renji. I'm certain the only other time was against his Hollow to get Vaizard abilities although that wasn't blatantly clear.

I think that is what Aizen meant by His Words on the hougyoku. ( I just haven't understood: why Ichigo)

But about Yamamoto. His power may not necessarily come from seeking it. It is more likely to have been from constant battle. Apparently he has been in quite a few which is evident on his body.

One principle that has been forgotten in Bleach, because it was stated so long ago, is the one about a soul increasing its power when in danger of termination. We can attribute Kenpachi's apparently limitless powers to this principle. It is highly doubtful that Kenpachi went through the Academy but we do know that all he did before he entered Soul Society was kill people.
While people like Byakuya, Gin, Aizen were simply born with high levels of power.

Ichigo's deal is simply because he's a hybrid. The wall between Shingami and Human was broken, and subsequently that between the Human and Hollow.

See Goke, I don't agree... I think somewhere in all shinigami is the readmittance of a soul... just like we find in the Hollow... it's just more organized and non-troubled by fighting for the right to be dominant... that's why they have secondary sources that are subsist them, because to some degree, every aspect is really a part of every life they've lived...

I mean, to think that they've all only lived one life is kinda ludicrous, and to think that all that reiatsu was developed after a single being is stranger still, given that life is short in the real world... one would think that a person like Yamamoto would have to delve hundreds of lives to find a place to gain that much reiatsu...

To me, I think that's why there are so many different aspects to how a shinigami has levels of reiatsu, and why they may seem powerful, but range in their strength... and why Ichigo or Isshin or others for that matter differ...

It has to do with their lives spent... I've said before that I think Ichigo is closer to the king relationship wise than people give him credit for... understanding ones ability is completely different from even knowing its there...let alone knowing that one is capable of doing tremendous things... to me, that's Ichigo... he's still stuck on being a human who solely wants to defend the things he cares about... what does he concern himself with reiatsu and power?

My point is, what it comes down to is that those who seek power, like Yamamoto, only seek what it is they think is there, while not seeing what more is out there, while Ichigo is hit with everything that he's geneticaly subsceptical to because of who he is... like Vizard ability at shinigami birth, Fullbring ability, plausibly Vasto Lorde ability which he got from his hollow form and so on... these things came to him when he called it...

I don't think Ichigo did anything that consciously warranted him that victory.

His fight against Ginjo was just as dodgy. There really wasn't anyway of quantifying just how much power he had received from the Shinigami. Dividing a building and clearing the sky are things which, to my mind, he could have done before fighting Ulquiorra.
The significant difference would lie in his physical attributes which we can point to his FUllbring training as its source.

I simply don't see how Ichigo did anything whatsoever against Ulquiorra. He didn't even scratch him.

I think in summation, as I've always thought, is that Bleach is more about expression, getting caught in the moment and seeing things unravel in ways which we did not expect. For example, the first time Ichigo's hollow came out in battle, we heard him speak, but the following times that occured, it never happened.
So I don't think he can learn the extent of his power, because it really can't be quantified. No one's can; well and truly.
What was Ichigo's most honest victory; ie one in which it wasn't the good guy syndrome kicking in in one form or another? I'd have to say Dordonii.

I understand what you're saying and to some degree I agree, but I disagree that with the Toushiro overtaking Shunsui with time given that we have no idea to the extent of Shunsui's true degree... one can never know what isn't shown when the seniority is mitigated...

That whole thing with Ichigo is certainly one of the must unstable balances in Bleach... look at Ulquiorra's own statements about Ichigo's ability... one minute he says its higher and then he says its lower... why? because his reiatsu is as unstable as Ichigo's understanding of himself...

Even with the Dangai training he didn't learn the total extent of what his reiatsu was worth, even with both aspects hitting him in the chest...

Ichigo has a great deal with Ulquiorra's defeat, and yet, he doesn't truly understand the ramifications that reiatsu has on the total premise... look at his bout with Ginjou and how reiatsu weighs on that...

Ichigo only understands battle... nothing more... the minute he understands the relevance of reiatsu then all of it will mean something... even if it is shortsighted like in his battle with Aizen and the Hogykoku....

What I'm saying is: Their seniority "implies" that, but doesn't state that. If there is a certainty of Toushiro overtaking Shunsui with time, does that not discount the Seniority principle?


Well we all know Ichigo is not exactly a paragon of stability. And people tend to forget that. Ichigo squared off against Kenpachi without Bankai, secured a draw against Byakuya, and subsequently got kicked around by Espada 10 and Espada 6 (twice). Ichigo had nothing to do with Ulquiorra's defeat, similar to the situation in the Byakuya fight.

I don't know Goke, age seems to have an adequate response on how capable a captain should be when it comes in response to a person's strength. Especially when contemplating how dense and capable they are with their reiastu.

I don't think it's bigoted at all to believe that a person like Shunsui or Ukitake for that matter, or even Unohana for that matter are stronger than they appear simply because of the length of their apptitude in Soul Society... They've got several hundreds of years of tenacity while the rest of the squadron don't...

That doesn't mean that there aren't others who are close and capable, but to think that the continuity of the others is somehow fluid due to their ability I can't necessarily agree with... look at how they've battled their adversaries and see the difficulties in each battle, while those above them have had no impetus at all...

My point is, Growth is there yes, but to think that all of them are in specific ranges to me is wrong, especially when none of them know for certain where the range varies among the truly uninhibited... like Ichigo or Isshin or Unohana for that matter... the ones who go where there is need at the moment... and do...

For instance, who knew that Ichigo had the exact amount of reiatsu to alleviate 2nd stage Ulquiorra of his reiatsu? no one... but he had it in spades...

Again the point relies on where does the reiatsu begin and and end...

違う!! You simply say that based on how long they've been captains, not necessarily how powerful they are.
It is difficult to argue, for example that Ukitake would defeat Byakuya or Kenpachi for example. There's no evidence to support it based on abilities shown. The same applies for Shunsui.
Yamamoto's comments could only have been made in that context. One cannot expect him to make comments on each and every Captain of the G13. Further, his comments can be taken in the context of when they were in school, because that was what he was talking about at the time.

My point is, you say these people are at the top with seniority being your basis of opinion.
How then would you rank the Captains who are "further down the line" in terms of power, when there is no indication as to how long each of them have been Captains? The only recourse you have is to look at their abilities and weigh them against each other. If that is applied across the board a fair, less bigoted picture is painted.

That's not true Goke... there are a number of captains that outweigh each other, they just don't seem to appear that way... take Shunsui and Ukitake for instance... the two of them are likely stronger than any of the younger Shinigami captains currently standing at post... and it should be reckoned in post, given that their abilities were mentioned by Yamamoto himself... You have to question the capacity of their abiltity given their placement when you have people like Ichigo and Issin for that matter bandering through the hiearchy as if it were meant to be twiddled through... I don't think there's a standard place where Shinigami's sit... due to reiatsu, I think they're where they're found...

These mysterious ranges and echelons of Gotei 13 Captains everyone speaks of. Heresy!! The only true confirmation of one captain being stronger than the other is Kyoraku Shunsui over Hitsugaya Toushiro.
All else is conjecture and should not be imposed in character discussions, I reckon. It is an affront to the integrity of the Gotei 13.
Refrain!!

primal, semi-intelligent...same thing... lol... and boxes can be taken literally or figuratively if you like... I'm not the kinda guy who just goes with what everyone else is saying..."fitting in a box" so to speak... and yeah, I don't like cardboard boxes either, they're flimsy... lol...