Ichigo vs Hitsugaya

[Grimm66Jack]

Argh putting Hitsugaya on Ichigo's level... *sigh

I look into the fight he had against Gin. This was sealed Gin vs shikai Hitsugaya and Hitsugaya was apparently the only one going all-out while Gin only used his shikai at the very end of the battle. We cna't make a direct comparison since against Ichigo Gin was using his bankai (bankai makes one 5-10x stronger) and Ichigo had his resolve low(as proved by Tensa Zangetsu).

We can't compare Ichigo to Halibel either only based on his performance against Ulquiorra, because the Espada ranks have nothing to do with combat abilities, but who has the highest spiritual pressure. Ulquiorra so far has a technique that could one-shot Hitsugaya and was much greater than any of Halibel's techniques -> Cero Oscuras and has shown with feats combat ability greater than Halibel by the simple fact of him being able to easily defeat masked bankai Ichigo with full resolve and Halibel not being able to do the same against a weaker characther.

Only fights you can gauge Ichigo's strength are against Grimmjow(3rd fight), Ulquiorra(2nd fight) and Byakuya, where he has high levels of confidence and has no power issues, well against Byakuya he was still unexperienced but he did pretty well and Byakuya is a Captain with greater stats and zanpakutou than Hitsugaya.

If Hitsugaya uses Hyoutten Hyakkaso, he can win, but only if this is a no-knowledge fight since Ichigo would simply escape from it's area if he has knowledge. But the problem is that Ichigo is a guy who can close the distance between him and Hitsugaya with ease given his massive superior speed and he's also a much better CQC combatant than Hitsugaya and his Getsuga Tenshou is more versatile to use and also more powerfull than Hitsugaya's "regular" Ice techniques ...

You guys are right indeed: Hitsugaya can win against Bankai Ichigo depending on the conditions of the scenario but in most scenarios, Ichigo would win.

You guys are just being illuded by Halibel's rank. However I already showed to you that her rank has no meaning in cambat abilities. And also: She still showed to be stronger than Hitsugaya, only downfall she had was allowing Hitsugaya to use HH, but even so she could escape from it and had no damage in her fight while Hitsugaya did suffer some wounds even against her in base form.

I say Bankai Ichigo with 70/30(odds). Masked Bankai Ichigo 90/10.

[Buzz Killington]

Originally Posted by Grimm66Jack

We can't compare Ichigo to Halibel either only based on his performance against Ulquiorra, because the Espada ranks have nothing to do with combat abilities, but who has the highest spiritual pressure.

Funny thing about that is its based on shaky translations. Only one person translated that particular part of the Masked Databook and got reiatsu at all, that being the first person to do it and said person implied it was obviously a rushed attempt. Check it out

http://bleachasylum.com/threads/1542...=1#post2449857

Notice who czeliate asks to confirm their trans (Quevache)? They also say their translation is crappy here..

http://bleachasylum.com/threads/1542...=1#post2450145

Now we have one of best independent translators in the community's take on it (This being the person the earlier translator asked to confirm their work: Quevache)

http://bleachasylum.com/threads/1542...=1#post2451952

"Amongst the great numbers of Arrancar that exist in Hueco Mundo, possessors of exceptional ability and efficacy-----these are the "Espada." The members which comprise them are mostly* the highest rank of Menos Grande, the "Vasto Lorde" class. Depending on their efficacy each is, from Aizen, bestowed a number."

Definition of efficacy

 Spoiler: click to show

It's a synonym for effectiveness, which I'm pretty sure isn't limited to just "reiatsu". Therefore your entire premise here is shaky and based on an admittedly bad translation attempt

The Espada are ranked by combat effectiveness, according to the better translation

Ulquiorra so far has a technique that could one-shot Hitsugaya and was much greater than any of Halibel's techniques -> Cero Oscuras and has shown with feats combat ability greater than Halibel by the simple fact of him being able to easily defeat masked bankai Ichigo with full resolve and Halibel not being able to do the same against a weaker characther.

Double standard. You attempt to say everyone who voted Hitsu is doing so for this reason:

Originally Posted by Grimm66Jack

Those saying that Hitsugaya wins are just trying to protect "Halibel" ... Since she was just a dissapointment that people have to overrate Hitsugaya to make it seem that Halibel was "strong"(for her rank that is)...

Yet you just admitted to doing that exact same thing just with different characters to try and support your idea that Ulq is superior. Not even mentioning the arbitrary "Hitsu's weaker" nonsense you're spouting

[xXSegundaEtapaXx]

Hitsugaya wins, mid-diff.

[Mystery_Man]

Originally Posted by goke

Toushiro blitzed Gin who toyed with Ichigo like a baby.

Well it was Gin vs SS Arc shikai Ichigo who still had a lot to learn at that point anyways. Plus when Hitsugaya and Gin fought it seemed to me like Gin seemed at least on par if not better then Toshiro.

But anyways, yea it seems I'm in the minority when it comes to this fight. I think Ichigo from right before he went into the dangai would defeat Hitsugaya.

[Grimm66Jack]

Originally Posted by Buzz Killington

Funny thing about that is its based on shaky translations. Only one person translated that particular part of the Masked Databook and got reiatsu at all, that being the first person to do it and said person implied it was obviously a rushed attempt. Check it out

http://bleachasylum.com/threads/1542...=1#post2449857

Notice who czeliate asks to confirm their trans (Quevache)? They also say their translation is crappy here..

http://bleachasylum.com/threads/1542...=1#post2450145

Now we have one of best independent translators in the community's take on it (This being the person the earlier translator asked to confirm their work: Quevache)

http://bleachasylum.com/threads/1542...=1#post2451952

"Amongst the great numbers of Arrancar that exist in Hueco Mundo, possessors of exceptional ability and efficacy-----these are the "Espada." The members which comprise them are mostly* the highest rank of Menos Grande, the "Vasto Lorde" class. Depending on their efficacy each is, from Aizen, bestowed a number."

Definition of efficacy

 Spoiler: click to show

It's a synonym for effectiveness, which I'm pretty sure isn't limited to just "reiatsu". Therefore your entire premise here is shaky and based on an admittedly bad translation attempt

The Espada are ranked by combat effectiveness, according to the better translation

Thanks for clarifying that Databook Issue. If this is true(wich more than likely is) then this will help me a lot in making comparisons in vs. threads.

I can finally say that Patched Kenpachi is stronger than Shunsui or Hitsugaya .

[Buzz Killington]

Originally Posted by Grimm66Jack

Thanks for clarifying that Databook Issue. If this is true(wich more than likely is) then this will help me a lot in making comparisons in vs. threads.

I can finally say that Patched Kenpachi is stronger than Shunsui or Hitsugaya .

You should also check to see if there's any other sources that deal with what the Espada are ranked on, Kubo tends to say one thing in one article and then an entirely different thing the next, even in his databooks (Such as the heights/weights and birthdays of the Captains)

[Grimm66Jack]

Originally Posted by Buzz Killington

You should also check to see if there's any other sources that deal with what the Espada are ranked on, Kubo tends to say one thing in one article and then an entirely different thing the next, even in his databooks (Such as the heights/weights and birthdays of the Captains)

If it's "strength" then it pretty much means that 0 Espadas = strongest, 9 = weakest. 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 ... etc. Not counting RSE Ulquiorra of course.

Plus it has always been implied that it's based on strength but the "implied"(by fans of course) inconsistencies on feats made me ignore this(my bad).

Patched Kenpachi > Hitsugaya and (shikai)Shunsui confirmed.
inb4 we can't use A > B B > C A > C logic ...
I can also tell that half powered bankai Ichigo post-Ulquiorra fight > Hitsugaya since he was handling Yammi with ease even without his mask. So yeah, Ichigo wins this fight with ease ...

Problem Hitsugaya fans?

EDIT: I may have Hitsugaya's haristyle on the "My Shinigami"(top right corner) but I only have it because it's the only one close to Grimmjow's(wich does not exist wich is dissapoiting), I don't really like Hitsugaya, either way it's not because of this that I say that he get's stomped. It's because of feats :blinditachi:

[vasto lorde king]

I'd say that even HM ichigo(last Grimmjow fight and up) Can take this. If Ichigo stays close enough he should eventually beat him.

[Grimm66Jack]

Originally Posted by vasto lorde king

I'd say that even HM ichigo(last Grimmjow fight and up) Can take this. If Ichigo stays close enough he should eventually beat him.

Dude, a half power bankai Ichigo was joking arround with Yammi who's the 0 Espada, 3 ranks above the Espada that Hitsugaya was struggling to defeat. Bankai Ichigo dominates this ...

:blinditachi:

[MarcoPR1]

Hmmm, to me this is a tough battle for both of them... If this is Ichigo just before his Dangai training he might give Hitsugaya some go... I mean he figures out ability rather quickly by that time... and honestly I don't think Hitsugaya has enough reiatsu to go against Ichigo at that point.

BUT... Hitsugaya's a pretty strong kid, with a pretty dangerous bankai of his own, and we have yet to see the full ability in that bankai of his, and that's the problem... I think that's the weakness... he'd have to catch Ichigo, who's a lot faster than Halibel at that point, and a lot stronger, and Hitsugaya hasn't shown a great deal of versatility with it, but what he does have with it is potent...

Aaaaargh.... based on pure strength alone, I think Ichigo takes this, but just barely...